Angela Hartnett

READ THE PODCAST

Annoushka Ducas:
Hi, Annoushka here. In this series, I'd really like to take the opportunity to tell you a little bit about The Brilliant Breakfast, an initiative that I set up two years ago to help The Prince's Trust support disadvantaged young women. It really can be as simple as putting the kettle on and inviting a few friends around, or hosting a breakfast for the team at work and asking everyone to give what they can to help change a girl's life. So, that's The Brilliant Breakfast, starting October the 10th this year. For more details, visit thebrilliantbreakfast.co.uk. Thank you.
I'm Annoushka Ducas, and welcome back to My Life in Seven Charms. For me, there are so few things which can evoke a memory like a tiny detailed charm. In this new series, I'll be meeting seven extraordinary women, and hearing their stories, through this very special 18ct gold biography. The world of Michelin Star Chefs in the UK has traditionally been dominated by men. My guest today on, My Life in Seven Charms, was one of the first women to smash that particular ceiling with her brand of simple, beautifully cooked, delicious food. Born of Italian and Irish parentage, she spent her early childhood learning to roll pasta with her beloved nonna. I can't wait to talk to the extraordinary Angela Hartnett, about your life in seven charms.

Angela Hartnett:
Thank you.

Annoushka Ducas:
I'm slightly fascinated by the first one, because I've never had to do this before. But your first charm is a wooden chopping board.

Angela Hartnett:
Yes.

Annoushka Ducas:
Well, A, I love the idea of making this, because the simplicity of it is really appealing. So, I thought, we'll obviously make... The center part will be wood, but I see it as all scored like it's been used and really loved. But framed by yellow gold, 18ct yellow gold polished frame to hold the wood. I don't know how big your chopping board was, but this one is going to be quite small because it's going to be charm-like.

Angela Hartnett:
Exactly. Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
Well, I mean it's such a humble object, this chopping board. So, why have you chosen a chopping board and why is it so precious to you?

Angela Hartnett:
I suppose a chopping board is something, whatever you do in a kitchen, you use a chopping board. My whole career has been based around food and working in kitchens. You mentioned earlier in the introduction about my grandmother, my nonna. That's one of the things I got from her when she died. My mom and her two sisters and brother, as they knew I cooked all the time with nonna and I was a chef, basically said you should have all nonna's kitchen stuff in that sense. So, I had a big chopping board. My grandparents both ran a fish and chip shop, so I had my grandfather's fish knife-

 

Annoushka Ducas:
On your mum's side?

Angela Hartnett:
On my mother's side, yes. All her little things like that. So, that was really lovely, and I still use it to this day. I always remember, she didn't have a... I don't know, she seemed to have a bad back, my grandmother, so liked a firm bed. So, the chopping board would always be under her mattress to keep her bed firm.

Annoushka Ducas:
That's hilarious. How big is this chopping board?

Angela Hartnett:
I mean, it's probably a meter by a meter. I mean, not under the whole of her bed, but basically under her side to her back. Then now, I don't put it under my bed, it sits in my kitchen next to the cooker. So, it's great. We use it to make pasta the whole time.

Annoushka Ducas:
So, tell me a bit more about, your mother had a fish and chip shop.

Angela Hartnett:
Grandparents.

Annoushka Ducas:
Grandparents. Where was that?

Angela Hartnett:
That was in Becontree in Essex, in East London. So, there three brothers, my grandfather and his two brothers, all of them came over from Italy after the first world war, because if you think about, Italy was decimated-

Annoushka Ducas:
Yeah.

Angela Hartnett:
... as a country. They all went to South Wales, where there's a huge Italian community that immigrated from this part of Italy to South Wales. It's very much the same story of many immigrants, that one person came over then called his brother and said, "You should come over." He brings his wife, she brings her brother and suddenly you have a whole community. Then from Wales, they moved up to Essex. So, one brother had one in Barking, one in Becontree and the other one in Dagenham. So, they had these three fish and chip shops.

Annoushka Ducas:
It's just weird that this Italian family effectively, should have fish and chip shops, so British.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. Well, it's very weird because if you think we had my mother's... My grandmother's sister, Auntie Rosina and her husband, Uncle Louis, they had a cafe in Newport Station in Wales, and you wouldn't see anything Italian there. They cooked for what they thought the Welsh community wanted, but at home ate Italian food. Also, I imagine at that time, it was probably very hard to get olive oil, tinned tomatoes and all the rest of it, post first world war.

Annoushka Ducas:
Yeah. Because it's such an Italian thing, isn't it though-

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
... to cook from really fresh, from fresh. But interested to know. So, your grandmother was doing that, and then did you get the thing about cooking from her? I mean, what sparked it?

Angela Hartnett:
Probably. I mean, my mother did a cordon bleu course. She was a child minder and a nanny, and then she did a cookery course as well. So, she always cooked well, my mom. We always ate great meals. She cooked everything from fresh, probably a bit more plain English than necessarily all Italian.

Annoushka Ducas:
Yeah.

Angela Hartnett:
Then when we moved up to live nearer to my grandmother, I did a lot more Italian food. I made pasta with her. I'd make-

Annoushka Ducas:
She taught you all that?

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. She taught me all that and I'd make it with her. It was very traditional. My brothers older than me, and my sister is younger, and there were other cousins, but I was the eldest granddaughter out all of us, and so I always had to help. It was a no brainer. There was no choice in the matter. Nonna needed some help, off you go, Angela. I look back now, I was very, very fortunate. My cousins didn't have that experience with her, my sister and my brother didn't, so I was very lucky. I was quite good. I was very quick, I was very efficient, I was very tidy, so it worked well. We were a good team.

Annoushka Ducas:
A good team. Was it very Italian in the way that Italians sit down for proper meal, whereas in England we are busy, we are eating on the hop, aren't we? It's not that wonderful ceremony and that whole thing.

Angela Hartnett:
No, no. As a family, we always ate together, and proper meals, as you say. We never ate in front of a TV. There was none of that. Lunch was where you sat and you talked and you caught up with each other, and what you did during the week. So, yeah. It was important.

Annoushka Ducas:
Well, hopefully that might happen again. But I mean, I spent a bit of time literally and I'm always struck by the fact that everything gets used, the stale bread gets reused and put into something. There seems to be a real respect for food, that I don't think we have here in the same way.

Angela Hartnett:
Well, they certainly don't waste anything. I also think if you look at the generation of my gran, who came out of the first world war-

Annoushka Ducas:
Rationing.

Angela Hartnett:
... lived through the second, they knew how scarce food could be. They knew how to make a meal stretch. I'll always remember going into her fridge. She never threw anything, but she didn't have cling film either so it was just little bowls with a saucer on top. You'd lift the saucer and there'd always be something delicious in it. I'd go, "There's a bit of ragu in there, or there's some stuffed onions," or something. I always laugh, as years later I lived with my mom's sister, her third daughter, Vivianna, and Viv would have the same habit, but it was never anything... It was always prunes soaking, or chickpeas, and I'd go, "Viv, this really is not as exciting as Nonna's fridge. Can we get rid of the health and have a bit more of our home comforts?"

Annoushka Ducas:
I love that. Well, if I go in your fridge, have you still got little saucers covering things?

Angela Hartnett:
We try to be very eco now, and we have, what is it? That beeswax-

Annoushka Ducas:
Oh, bees stuff.

Angela Hartnett:
No. Our fridge is probably the worst fridge. I recently did a thing for the... Was it The Observer or The Guardian? They had five chefs, and I looked at my fridge compared to the others. I thought, I cannot believe their fridges look like that, because there's no way. They were stocked to the rafters. Whereas, ours is all jars of bits of things, because... Anyway, it's full at the weekend, but through the week it's always empty because we're not there. I don't want to waste stuff so I'd rather buy for what I need, and then that's it.

Annoushka Ducas:
Yeah. I read somewhere that in the UK we waste 10 million tons of food a year. I'm just like... I'm really interested in that in restaurants, and how that works, because obviously the waste, even just people leaving things. But how do you overcome that? How do you deal with it?

Angela Hartnett:
Well, one, you try and avoid any waste. I mean, nothing should go in a bin.

Annoushka Ducas:
Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Hartnett:
There should be really no waste. Any vegetable trimmings will make a veg stock. If you take a leek and you've got the lovely white bit, because you want to put that in the sauce, then you put the green stalk in your stocks and in your sauces. I mean, there really shouldn't be. Because what you are effectively doing is throwing money in the bin.

Annoushka Ducas:
Well, I was going to say, margin it's all about.

Angela Hartnett:
That's how... If you suddenly see food costs and your margins drop. My one thing is, right. How are we buying stuff in? What's on the menu? What are we wasting? Are we utilizing everything from that? You can pick up straight away.

Annoushka Ducas:
I mean, God. There's got to be a campaign. Maybe chefs should start a campaign to stop waste in houses. I mean, I'm terrible, because I'm such a crap cook.

Angela Hartnett:
No. But I mean, they did a great thing. The Great British Waste Menu, we did that. I mean, maybe now, with everything going up, inflation, suddenly the cost of living, I think people might be... You'd like to think people would be a bit more... But I think it's a circle. I don't think it's just... I think it starts with supermarkets and shelf life, these ridiculous shelf lives they put on it. I think it starts in schools, teaching people how to cook. They don't need to love cooking like me, but they need to know the basics and they need to know how you value money and food.

Annoushka Ducas:
So, moving on to your second charm, which is completely different. So, this is a Naval hat. So, I immediately assume, because I like a bit of bling, that it should be white diamond pave with tiny little stones. I think it should be blue sapphires, three dimensional blue sapphires, set in yellow gold. So, the actual peak will be yellow gold polished.

Angela Hartnett:
Oh wow.

Annoushka Ducas:
It could, I think this is to represent your dad. So, we could put his initials on it, which I think would be rather lovely.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. That would be great.

Annoushka Ducas:
But tell me about this particular charm.

Angela Hartnett:
My father died when I was seven, so we were very young. He was a Naval officer. He was in the Merchant Navy. He was the one, I never quite know the job title, but when helicopters and planes landed, he held up those round, looked like table tennis things, and directed them in. So, for a lot of our childhood, he wasn't around, because he'd be away at sea for three months and then come back for home. Then unfortunately he got liver cirrhosis and a form of yellow jaundice when we were quite young, because my brother was under 10, I was under 10 and my sister wasn't even one. So, I think that was quite a big thing for my mom, to have three kids all under 10. Yeah. It was a big deal actually. I think we've been very resilient as a result. I think probably my sister, I wouldn't say suffered more, but probably feels the trauma more, because she missed out-

Annoushka Ducas:
Having never met him.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. Whereas, Michael and I did meet... I remember my father still. When I talk to Michael, he does as well. But I also think it's a shame, because I think he would've been a great dad. I think there's lots of indications that he would've been phenomenal to have grown up with. He did this album that my mom gave to my brother when he married, where it was his whole life in an album, when he was growing up and out with girlfriends, out with friends, pictures on the boats and everything. He put names and stuff next to it. Then at the last page is a picture of his wedding, and he put, the end. Then on the final page, there's a picture of my brother who was born, and then he put, the living end.

Annoushka Ducas:
Oh.

Angela Hartnett:
I think he'd have been... I mean, my mom always says that he was confident without being cocky or arrogant. Anyway, so it's a shame he wasn't part of our lives, but I think he'd have been proud how mom's brought us all up. I think that even though their marriage was short lived, I think they did have a great marriage.

Angela Hartnett:
I think he'd have been... I mean, my mom always says that he was confident without being cocky or arrogant. Anyway, so it's a shame he wasn't part of our lives, but I think he'd have been proud how mom's brought us all up. I think that even though their marriage was short lived, I think they did have a great marriage.

Annoushka Ducas:
So, do you think, you obviously were surrounded by a lot of women, other than your poor brother. Do you think that's affected how you've grown up, and how your views about life and-

Angela Hartnett:
I think it may... I think maternal is the wrong word-

Angela Hartnett:
About life.

Annoushka Ducas:
I think maternal's the wrong word. It maybe made me very family focused in that respect. But I don't think it's necessarily made me more of a feminist or anything like that, certainly considerate of people. My mom was very focused about how you treat people, letting people down, doing the right thing. So it certainly... And I think that's my mother's just giving you proper morals and values. And I think that both the influence of the fact that my father died early and then both grandfathers, I didn't know either of my grandfathers. So you had three strong maternal women and two grandparents and also my dad's sister was widowed early as well. So if you like there's four, so you felt lots of women around you and they were very capable.
I always remember my father's younger sister say to me, "This nonsense. Women run everything. Of course we run the house." She was very pragmatic about it. She goes, "I don't know this nonsense," but maybe that is what. Because in your career it must have been unbelievably useful to have been, to feel able to lead and to be very much in charge of your own destiny.
Okay. So charm Three, you said, "I want it to be a kind of really childlike house." So I've drawn it like that. It's flat, but it's a locket. So it opens. Yeah. And you can see there's a little garnet heart inside. And there we are. But tell me about home and why.

Angela Hartnett:
I suppose home in the sense that to me is probably family. I suppose that's what it illustrates. I mean, my mum to this day always describes her home as our home. She says, "You're coming home," which I think is always a lovely thing. And I think there's a great feeling amongst certainly immediate family that... I've stayed with my aunt. I've lived with my aunt before now. My cousins have lived with my uncle. It feels like you're very much all entwined. And certainly the house we live in now in east London, I own it with my brother. My sisters live there. I now live there. But I could see my nephews from New York coming over to live there for a bit. It feels like we're all very entwined.

Annoushka Ducas:
This is very Italian stuff.

Angela Hartnett:
Very Italian.

Annoushka Ducas:
I mean, it really is.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. Very, very Italian. And I like people coming over and I think if you invite people to your home, people should be relaxed. I don't mind if something spills or this, that, and the other. It's like, come on, they're just objects or articles. Yes, it can be annoying, but I think you've just got to chill out and treat it as, it's where you live.

Annoushka Ducas:
Completely agree. Oh yeah. I was brought up as like the more the merrier. And now when the children say, "I'm coming home and can I bring seven of my closest friends?" Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Angela Hartnett:
That's great. I'm quite relaxed about all things like that. I mean, sometimes the next time I'm like, "Jesus, why did I agree to that?" But I think home for me is very, I love being there by myself. I mean, that's quite selfish, I know, but if Neil's going out or Salvatore is I'm like, "Oh, oh, thank God," or they're working, to me being at home by myself is a joy.

Annoushka Ducas:
Oh, completely. So I'm really interested in that. Who's Salvatore, by the way?

Angela Hartnett:
Oh, Salvatore is, I suppose, a lodger for want of a better word, but he's been here nearly 15, 17? He's lived with us a long time.

Annoushka Ducas:
The lodger.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. The lodger, we can't get rid of him. I think he's moving with us if we ever move. We're stuck with him.

Annoushka Ducas:
So surrogate, lodger, child, et cetera.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
But with this family feeling, I know you haven't had kids and presumably work has just taken over your whole life.

Angela Hartnett:
And yeah, no, to be fair, we did try and have kids, but unfortunately probably left it a little bit too late. And then I had a few issues. So it was never going to happen. So we sort of accepted that quite easily. We could have adopted, but we both decided no. So yeah. I'm quite happy with my choices.

Annoushka Ducas:
You've got Salvatore there. So you've got Sal and other adults.Out of interest,, how do you think are the women chefs managed? Because if you are a chef it's absolutely full on. Isn't it full on? So it's kind of, I always think, "My God, how can they kind of...? Because I find it hard.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. There's certainly... If you are a bloke and you've got kids, probably the woman takes the brunt of it. But I think a lot of guys actually more so now, whether they ever admit it, actually do spend a lot more time family than probably 30 years ago. And I think that's just changed now. I think people have put family... Work's important, but also seeing your kids grow up is important.

Annoushka Ducas:
Absolutely. But how, but in the chefing world, I mean how? Because hours are so bloody anti social.

Angela Hartnett:
Well, they have historically been. But again, I think if you care about yourself... I mean, my guys do three and a half days a week.

Annoushka Ducas:
Oh really?

Angela Hartnett:
So if you think of a working week, a restaurant's open, say it's closed one day. And most of them are open then six days and that gives you 12 shifts a week. So that's lunch service, dinner service. There's some restaurants that will make their staff work 10 shifts. And that is five doubles a day. And that is like eight to eight, nine in the morning till close. You're there till 11, 12 at night.

Annoushka Ducas:
That's a disaster.

Angela Hartnett:
I've worked those hours back in the day.

Annoushka Ducas:
I'm sure you have.

Angela Hartnett:
I worked them back in the day. I used to run restaurants that made my staff do it, but we've changed all that now because people don't want to do it. Physically can't do it. You don't get the best out of them and you don't retain your team. So we've gradually moved from that working practice to now going from even eight shifts down to six. So that means they'll do one double a week. They're looking at 45 hours a week, which is normal. That's a normal working week.

Annoushka Ducas:
But that's quite enlightened it sounds like. I think you are unusual. Aren't you?

Angela Hartnett:
There are a lot more places out there than we think, I think. I really do. I just think people presume because all they've done is seen the programs. They've seen this, that and the other. Everyone thinks, "Oh God, that's what catering is." But actually, we've moved past that. And if you really want your staff to turn up every day, you've got to do right by it. Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
Yeah. As I said to you earlier, God, when I had my fish business all those years ago, I obviously dealt with so many very, very scary chefs, I'd say. And I remember lots of shouting, lots of swearing.

Angela Hartnett:
But that was what, 20 years ago?

Annoushka Ducas:
Yeah. That was 20 years ago.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah, exactly.

Annoushka Ducas:
But was that your experience 20 years ago?

Angela Hartnett:
I think, yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
Because that was before you.

Angela Hartnett:
Without a doubt, there was lots of swearing, not physical, but there's lots of people who have said that. And there were certainly lots of hours. I've worked in some of those kitchens, but I've never quite understood why you would do that to your staff. You can be firm and disciplined without being a total ass about it. Because once that happens once or twice or three times, you are immune. It's a bit like, isn't it, when your mom and dad scream at you. You sort of think, "Oh yeah, they're just screaming at you. You just come on. Finish it." And then it's that. But when someone really feels like I actually really disappointed me, that kills you more than anything else. So the screaming is just water off a duck's back really. You become immune, I think.

Annoushka Ducas:
No tears.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah, no tears.

Annoushka Ducas:
No tears. Never tears.

Angela Hartnett:
Never tears.

Annoushka Ducas:
Even when you're over them. No tears.

Angela Hartnett:
I never, no, I never, oh God, no, never. I wouldn't, even if I went and burst out crying in the fridge, I'd never cry in front of Gordon.

Annoushka Ducas:
No. How would he have dealt with it if you'd cried?

Angela Hartnett:
I don't know, actually

Angela Hartnett :
Yeah. So we again opened in August and we got the start in January. We got it within three months.

Annoushka Ducas :
So just, because that is absolutely incredible. I don't know if that's a record. Do you know if that's a record?

Angela Hartnett :
I think it's very quick, but partly I spoke to the inspectors without doubt. I had a good chat with them. And they said, "Look, we wouldn't normally do that to a restaurant, but we've known you." I was five years at the Connaught, consistent delivering one star food. So they said, "We know what you're cooking. We know where you are. So why not?" I don't think... It is a bit like Claire getting two, three stars now. She's got it phenomenally quick.

Annoushka Ducas :
Clare Smyth, do you mean?

Angela Hartnett :
Yeah. Clare, who runs CORE restaurant in Notting Hill, but they've been following her career for 10 years when she's been head chef at a three star for Gordon. So if you know the chef and you know what they're cooking, it's not such so surprising. But it is great.

Annoushka Ducas :
It is absolutely credible. And I'm just really interested at what, is there a point where as a chef, you are like, "I really want to get my own star"? Is that a reason to get up in the morning?

Angela Hartnett :
I love having one star. I do. I'd love to get two stars for the restaurant and for the team. Do I wake up every day thinking that? No. I think what you do is you push your restaurant, your menu, if you want to push it. I don't think you do it for any accolades. I always believed that. Get your product right and what you're serving. And then if you're doing a good enough job, those things will follow. I think that's the best way to approach it.

Annoushka Ducas :
Now I've got to ask about this picture that John Ridden did in the National Portrait Gallery.

Angela Hartnett :
Okay. Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas :
I've got to ask about it because for those people that haven't seen, it's worth looking up because it's a kind of mock up. It seems to be, it's a mock up of DaVinci's Last Supper.

Angela Hartnett:
Isn't it really? Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
But what really struck me is you are the only woman in this whole picture.

Angela Hartnett:
Oh gosh, yes, that's true.

Annoushka Ducas:
You've forgotten. Because it was a while ago. Wasn't it?

Angela Hartnett:
Well, I'm thinking. Gary Rhodes is in that. Isn't he?

Annoushka Ducas:
Yes.

Angela Hartnett:
Gary Rhodes, Gordon, Marcus.

Annoushka Ducas:
Gordon's right in the middle.

Angela Hartnett:
Giorgio's there. Who else is there? Eric Chavo. Trying to think who else now?

Annoushka Ducas:
I think Marcus must be there.

Angela Hartnett:
Marcus is there. I think Tom Aikens is there. Is Phil Howard there?

Annoushka Ducas:
He's there.

Angela Hartnett:
Okay. So yeah, I was the only, yeah, oh God, yeah. That was many, many moons ago, crikey, yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
Visually it's such an incredible picture and you're... Does it strike you you're the only woman there?

Angela Hartnett:
It's, yeah, I didn't, never really. I suppose I'm not really doing much for my feminist credentials-

Annoushka Ducas:
Of course, keep going though.

Angela Hartnett:
When I say no. But in the sense that no, I never used to think, "Oh God, I'm the only woman." It only struck me more so as I took over the Connaught and then suddenly the Gordon Ramsey group developed. So then we had the Connaught Savoy, the Barkley, Claridges, all these hotels plus Royal Hospital Road. Suddenly it was really driven, and everyone who was a head chef, pretty much bar, were all men. And it only sort of came across when things like, Gordon would be offered stuff. Do this article. Do this gig, all the rest of it. And maybe he was too busy or whatever and they'd go, "Can we get Angela?" And it was interesting then suddenly some of blokes were, "Well, why is it always Angela?" And actually the reason it was always Angela, because it was just more interesting to have a woman than another bloke. And that's why I always say it didn't harm me at all been being one of the few women in cooking. And also when I look back now, Marcus was always quite protective of me. Gordon was. "You all right? You need anything?"

Annoushka Ducas:
Oh he was protective? Is he a bit of a pussycat, really?

Angela Hartnett:
I think underneath he's certainly very caring. So yeah, I was never phased by it.

Annoushka Ducas:
Because another one I used to ring him up.

Annoushka Ducas:
I was never phased by it. Because another one, I used to ring him from my fish business. Literally. Because I was so young, I was 23. And these chefs-

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. Well, that must have been the aubergine then.

Annoushka Ducas:
It was. It was. Yeah, absolutely. But I was ... "Don't send me that shit." I was like, "Oh, my God. This is terrifying." Now, how many ... Claire, she's one. But are there lots of others? Because I can't think of lots of others.

Angela Hartnett:
Listen. Claire, Sally Clark, Ruth Rogers. You've got Lisa Allen, Nevis, Pip Lacey. Yeah, there's a lot.

Annoushka Ducas:
There's a lot of women.

Angela Hartnett:
There's a lot more.

Annoushka Ducas:
There are a lot more. Without doubt.

Angela Hartnett:
Anna, who I'm doing. Irish girl. You've got Ravi, Gil. Yeah, and there's lots.

Annoushka Ducas:
So, I'm just ill informed.

Angela Hartnett:
You're ill informed.

Annoushka Ducas:
I'm just ill informed, basically. What I was going to ask you, if you are going out, not to one of your restaurants, where do you tend to go?

Angela Hartnett:
I'll go places like Braun. I tend to stay east, because that's where I live. So, places like Braun. I'll go to Noble Rots, St. John, Luca. Good restaurants, but I would say casual. Not casual in the sense of Cote or Pizza Express, but just not fancy. Some may have Michelin stars, some may not. But I just want to go and have good food and great wine and good service.

Annoushka Ducas:
And do you want to go and discover new, or do you just go to old favorites?

Angela Hartnett:
I tend to go to old favorites for a night out. I do like going to see new restaurants, without doubt. I really want to go to Manteca. That's the place that everyone's talking about-

Annoushka Ducas:
All right. Writing it down.

Angela Hartnett:
So I want to go and eat there. A few others. So yeah. But I don't tend to go within the first month that everyone else has gone. I tend to wait, let it bed in and let's see. Unless it's a mate of mine, like Russell Norman, who's opened Brutto. We went there pretty early on, just to give him support and show the love. But there's other people I'll just wait a while and go after a few months.

Annoushka Ducas:
And when you book, who do you say you are?

Angela Hartnett:
I say who I am.

Annoushka Ducas:
That just must make their evening, and makes it nightmare.

Angela Hartnett:
No, no, no. I'm very chilled.

Annoushka Ducas:
No, you are very chill, but that won't make them very chilled. And is there anything that when you're knackered and exhausted ... I'm sure you're asked this a lot, but what's your craving? Chefs I've spoken to all eat junk food and-

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. It's probably what everyone does. Cheese on toast, tuna sandwich. It's nothing. My all to go-to easy fix is a chicken schnitzel. Breast of chicken in panko breadcrumbs fried in olive oil with salad. I mean, that to me, if there's nothing else to eat, that's what I'd eat all the time.

Annoushka Ducas:
Okay. That's a really good tip. I'm just such terrible cook. Last night, I was like, what am I ... Anyway, I just went to and Fourth. But that's an easy thing to do. Okay. Your next charm is-

Angela Hartnett:
I love this.

Annoushka Ducas:
This is a dessert spoon. You just said silver colored. So I'm assuming it's just a very simple white gold dessert spoon. I've put your initials on it because-

Angela Hartnett:
Oh, thank you.

Annoushka Ducas:
I just think, why wouldn't you put your initials on it? Anyway, tell me about this spoon.

Angela Hartnett:
So I think a spoon, again, I've realized looking at the beautiful picture you've drawn of all the charms, there's so much food related. I should really be doing more in my life. But spoon is ... Yeah, cooking. It's always what you have on you. I always have it tucked in my apron or in my back pocket. So its for tasting the whole time. And I always, for instance, I've just been out to the hotel we run out in the French Alps, and I brought my spoons and I couldn't find one. I'm like, "Right, where's the spoon?" I spend half an hour looking for this spoon. Everyone going see ... I said, "No, I don't want that spoon. I want my spoon." So I'm quite particular. Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
I've just been to the Porteta, actually. Yeah. It was fair. How often do you get there?

Angela Hartnett:
I was there last weekend and I'm out in a couple of weeks. So every three, four weeks I'll go out there for the season.

Annoushka Ducas:
Are you a skier?

Angela Hartnett:
No. I can ski and have skied, but I don't ski when I'm out there. Because I'm out there to do my job, and my luck I'll end up breaking my foot or something and going back in an ambulance. So I'd rather just do what I do when I'm there.

Annoushka Ducas:
Because that's actually, a bit off topic of the spoon, but I was going to ask you. Because chefing is one thing, but you run a really successful little empire in terms of a business. So how do you go from being a chef to business- wise? It's unusual to be able to do both. How have you ...

Angela Hartnett:
Well, I think like any business, and I think you surround yourself with people who know their side of the business and you make sure everyone does that. I have a great accountant, finance guy. I've got a great business partner, my CEO, and we work very much in unison. I can't do it all, but I know where my strengths are. My strengths are with people, my strengths are with vision, how I want the company to move forward. And then some like Chris will go, "Okay. So how do we do that? If I say to Chris I want everyone earning this much an hour, I want everyone six shifts a week, he'll come back and say, "All right, this is what's going to afford. This is how we'll do it." You work together, and because no one can do everything.

Annoushka Ducas:
I also say actually the trick is to find people that are better than you.

Angela Hartnett:
Oh, I agree. Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
Might be tricky on the cooking, but on the other side.

Angela Hartnett:
No, but in a way, Ferguson Henderson at St John, he said, "You get to a stage where you're employing people who cook better than you. And that's not a bad thing."

Annoushka Ducas:
Do you find that threatening though in any way?

Angela Hartnett:
No, I don't think so. Em, who's my head chef at Morano, she'll come out with things I would never think of. But I think that humility goes a long way, and a bit of humbleness to say, "Oh God, how'd you do that?" Rather than being so arrogant and say, "Well, I don't want it like that because ..." I think the point is cooking, more than any business, is constantly evolving. One of the reasons I am love doing great British menu is because I see all these young cooks do stuff, and I'll go up and go, "How'd you do that?" And they look at you as if to say, "You should know." But actually they get quite a kick that someone's actually asking them.

Annoushka Ducas:
Absolutely. Yeah, fantastic to be asked by you. So exciting. Because actually now, how many establishments are you overseeing?

Angela Hartnett:
So I've got three Cafe Muranos, which is little Italian restaurants. Then we have Murano. And then I work with Robin Hudson who runs Homegrown Hotels, which are the big hotels in Linewood. And I oversee and work with Luke Holder at Linewood, who's the head chef there. And then I look after Porteta in the French Alps, which is part of the Linewood group as well.

Annoushka Ducas:
Well, that's quite a major feat.

Angela Hartnett:
Actually, it really is.

Annoushka Ducas:
And I'd really like to know about how you managed all of this and how they managed through COVID. Tell me about ... Because you've done amazing things.

Angela Hartnett:
Okay. So obviously everything closed, because we had to. We put everyone on furlough and we were able to sustain the businesses through lockdown. We did takeaway with the cafes, which put money in the business. And then before that I did ... A friend of mine, a great mate of mine called Lulu Dylan, I saw on social media cooking for the NHS. And I at home and it was great to be at home, but there was also nothing to do. There was probably lots to do, but I didn't do any of it. I said, "I'll help you." So her dad ... If you think about it, London was empty. There's no traffic. So they lived out in Beckonsfield, West London. And Mike would travel in two days a week and he'd come over to me on a Tuesday and I'd put all the food I'd prepared on the doorstep.

Annoushka Ducas:
You're doing it from

Angela Hartnett:
I was doing at home. No, from home.

Annoushka Ducas:
Oh, from home.

Angela Hartnett:
And then he'd pick it up, and then Lulu would cook stuff and she'd put these little packages together and then she'd go and deliver it. And then we started talking about it and all the rest of it. And she said, "Look, there's a real thing that I've gone into some of these hospitals and talked to some of my mates that there's just nothing there. The people aren't getting food, and if they're self isolating they're not going to shops." I said, "All right, let me speak to Greg," who was a business friend of mine who runs a hospitality industry. He's got massive kitchens that were just empty, and a brigade of people. And so we got in touch with him, and then it just escalated from there. So we used their kitchens. We were suddenly delivering to, I think, 10 hospitals in London.

Annoushka Ducas:
Wow.

Angela Hartnett:
To their ICU. To the point when it was at peak, we were probably doing about 1000 meals a day.

Annoushka Ducas:
Wow.

Angela Hartnett:
And when I say we, there's a whole brigade of people. So Hawksmore Group got involved, Robin Gill got involved, Wahacka got involved. We funded it. It was a charity, we had loads of donations. And it was wonderful. So loads people volunteered. And then by the time the second lockdown came, there was no need for it because hospitals knew what ... They were coping much better.

Annoushka Ducas:
I think they were all a bit sad about that.

Angela Hartnett:
Thank god. Yeah. It did galvanize ... A friend of mine at the time, he was running Fortnam and Mason.

Annoushka Ducas:
Ewen?

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah, Ewen. So come Easter time, 300 Easter eggs that we took to everyone. And then we had other bakers go, "Here's another 500 hot cross buns." So there's all these lovely little care packages that just went to the hospitals, which was great.

Annoushka Ducas:
Okay. Your next charm is-

Angela Hartnett:
I love this.

Annoushka Ducas:
Is a chopping knife. So I don't know whether it was a specific chopping knife, but you can see, I visualized it as black rodeo with black diamonds in it, because I like handle to be like that. And as you can see, I've put Neil on. I've engraved Neil on there, because I know that he gave you this knife. But talk me through the knife.

Angela Hartnett:
So, knife-

Annoushka Ducas:
And tell me a bit about Neil actually.

Angela Hartnett:
Well, so Neil, husband, we've known each other ... Oh God. Since the beginning of the Cono. So since 2002.

Annoushka Ducas:
So was he working at The Cono?

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah, I think he came to start 2003 maybe. Yeah, he came, he was in Scotland, Amarillo. And then basically Neil, who was my head chef at the time, Neil Ferguson, had worked up in a Amarillo, got to know Neil Borswick, my husband, and said, "Come down." And so he started working with us. And he is much younger than me, but he was a great chef, really enthusiastic, very funny. He's always made me laugh. We have fun together. So we always remained very good friends. He went off to work in France.

Annoushka Ducas:
Left The Cono.

Angela Hartnett:
Left The Cono for about five years.

Annoushka Ducas:
Not fired? Just checking.

Angela Hartnett:
Not fired. No, not fired. And then just over time I suppose, became much closer. And then ended up going out and then the rest his history, I suppose, to put it very quickly.

Annoushka Ducas:
So if have you ever actually worked, since you've been married, worked together in the same kitchen?

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. Not since we've been married. We did work together at Merchants Tavern, which was a restaurant we set up with him. And then we've sold our shares in that. And then he now works the French house. So no, since we've been married. And probably I think if we ever did do that again, it would be I wouldn't be work in the kitchen. I'd let him do the kitchen and I would do front of house. Just because I think it just becomes annoying. It's just easier to not work together.

Annoushka Ducas:
Well he's bloody messy.

Angela Hartnett:
He's messy. And he does things that annoy the hell out of me, and probably vice versa. So it's probably easier. Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
But when did he give you this knife?

Angela Hartnett:
I think right ... Probably quite a few years ago now, probably as a present. And what they never realized until we gave it to a friend of ours at their wedding, that when you give someone a knife, they're supposed to give you a coin back or something.

Annoushka Ducas:
A coin. Yeah.

Angela Hartnett:
Because otherwise it's bad luck. I realized I've been giving knives to all my chefs over the years, and none of them have, so I've been putting this curse on all of them. And where Neil's brilliant is he'll always sharpen all my knives for me. I'm not the best. I can do-

Angela Hartnett:
Brilliant, is he'll always sharpen all my knives for me. You know I'm not the best. I can do it on the steel. But the stone, I'm not the best. So he does all that for me, which is great.

Annoushka Ducas:
And quite shortly after you married, am I right in thinking he had a terrible accident.

Angela Hartnett:
No, that was before we got married. So this was probably about 9, 10 years ago now.

Annoushka Ducas:
So what happened?

Angela Hartnett:
He basically came off his push bike. And it was that whole knock on the door at 01:00 in the morning. "Oh, do you know Neil Boswick?" And then I said, right. " He is in hospital. Will you come with us?" And of course, they don't tell you anything till you get to the hospital. And then you have to wait for the doctors and blah, blah, blah. And he basically had to be put in an induced coma for about seven days.

Annoushka Ducas:
Oh my God.

Angela Hartnett:
Because he had the pressure on his head. And then they had to open his head up to release the pressure. So yeah, it was quite traumatic. He's come through amazingly well. Nothing else in his body, he didn't break anything else. No bones, nothing. He literally must have smacked his head. And the annoying thing about it, Neil's a massive cyclist, loves his cycling. Because I rang Phil. He was working for Phil Howard, the chef at the time. I rang Phil the next day and I said, "Neil's had this accident, he's not coming into work." And he said, "Well, what happened? Did someone go into him?" I said, "No, we don't know. But as far as we're aware, no." And Neil always wore his helmet. And that night, for some stupid reason, didn't have a helmet on, and came off his bike. Because Phil always said, "God, I'm always here, Neil walking in in his lycras, sweating, with his helmet." And he goes, "That's my eternal image of Neil" he goes, "And then to have this." Well, it just proves, doesn't it? Don't ever go out the door without wearing your helmet.

Annoushka Ducas:
But he's back and working?

Angela Hartnett:
Oh yeah. Much better.

Annoushka Ducas:
Yeah. Cool. So you've obviously got a dog, because your next charm, charm seven is a dog paw.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
So tell me, I'm not sure. So tell me about this particular dog.

Angela Hartnett:
I'm looking at you put Betty.

Annoushka Ducas:
I put Betty.

Angela Hartnett:
But I sort of think we maybe need to do the initials of all the dogs we've had on there, rather than just Betty.

Annoushka Ducas:
Okay.

Angela Hartnett:
But anyway. So originally, this Jack Russell Terrier rescue dog called Alfie. And then this pocket beagle, Otis, who's his beautiful, well, he's not so pocket now. He's like this. But he was, and he is still a gorgeous dog, Otis. So we had Alfie and Otis. And then Alfie went up to dog heaven as they say. And then we've got little Betty, who's a Jack Russell. And so now, she thinks she is the bees knees and rules. I mean, she jumps. She's like a rocket, the energy of her, which has been really good for Otis. Even though I think at times he wants to just pin her against the wall and tell her to shut up. It's been good for him because when she goes and wants to go out, he'll then follow. Whereas before, he might be a bit lazy because he's getting older. But actually, she's energized him.

Annoushka Ducas:
Were you brought up with dogs?

Angela Hartnett:
No. My grandmother had a dog. She had a Scottish terrier. And we'd look after Max every now and again. But no, we weren't. But it was my sister that said she wanted a dog. And since then, and all my family have been, [inaudible] for God's sake. My mother have a ridiculous, my daughter went gaga over these dogs. But now my mom cannot get enough. Oh the dogs. How's Otis? She's been fed? She absolutely will go, "I love that dog. I love that dog. Anything happened to that dog?" So everyone's turned into massive dog lovers. And it's great because we do a weekly walk on the heath, and it gets you exercising well. And oh, I like it.

Annoushka Ducas:
Okay. Well, your last charm. So you said map of Italy and Sicily with Bardi. So I'm like, okay, how are we going to do that? So I have a whole kind of spinning series because I think jewelry's so much about how tactile it is and how playful it is. And I spin this all the time. So it's a map of Italy on a yellow gold flattened sphere, I guess. And the map has got diamonds all over Italy. And then we've highlighted Bardi with a little red ruby. And it spins beautifully. So obviously, Italy is absolutely part of your heritage. But do you feel Italy is home?

Angela Hartnett:
I feel very relaxed when I go there. I always feel very disloyal to my dad. Not disloyal. But the Irish side, I don't embrace as much. Although I am going to embrace it when I try and get my European passport. So that's probably totally hypocritical of me. But anyway. I mean, it is just by default, at the end of the day, my father died when we were young. So of course, you naturally veer towards your mother's family just by default. It's not that we didn't see my dad's family. We still see my dad's family. We've still got lots of cousins. We're all in touch with them. But it's just by default, you do. And so Italy felt very natural. My mother would take us to Italy in the summer, or we'd go out to Italy for the summer. We visited. Annoushka Ducas:
And where'd you go?

Angela Hartnett:
So we used to go to Bardi. But we still do. We'd also go to Lignana where my mother's sister lived, and visit her. There were times when my mother would stick us on the plane, we'd be met at the other airport. She had three kids. She got rid of my brother and I for three weeks. But that was a rest for her in that respect. So that's why I sort of put it Italy. And I suppose my whole career has been built on it.

Annoushka Ducas:
Obviously going back to your nonna and learning to cook with her, that was very much Italian. But I mean, I guess you could have cooked Irish food.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. And I think the basis is interesting. My mother's much more plain cooking. She does her Italian food brilliantly, but she loves a proper stew. My grandmother always made savory, but she could never really make a cake properly. My mother was always the one that did all that sort of stuff.

Annoushka Ducas:
But I'm just fascinated that you've ended up, I mean, Italian food is absolutely your thing. Do you think that came from all those holidays?

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah, I think so. I definitely think so. And I think, isn't it cook what you know, or something? Or basically do what you know. So I knew it better. And also, I think Irish food, it's like British food. There's not necessarily a style about it, but it's about the ingredients we have. And I think in Ireland and Britain, we have incredible produce. But I don't think we necessarily have a classical style, like Italy of antipasti, primi, secondi, that sort of thing.

Annoushka Ducas:
Yeah. And what's your absolute favorite Italian food?

Angela Hartnett:
I suppose my absolute favorite Italian dish is a dish called to Anolini, which is basically pasta that's been stuffed with the juices from cooking down braised beef and veal, mixed with bread crumbs mixed with parmesan, and you serve it in a broth.

Annoushka Ducas:
And that's what your nonna taught you to make?

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah, that's what she taught me. We have that at Christmas every year.

Annoushka Ducas:
Okay. And you were very specific. You had to have Sicily on this map.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. I love Sicily. Family, I'm not from Southern Italy at all. But I go back to Sicily. I think it's a great place. And I think I love the fact Italy feels slightly, I mean, they might dislike that, behind the times. But it's not. I think it's where we should be. Things don't open on a Sunday. Shops close once a week in the afternoon.

Annoushka Ducas:
They still have a siesta?

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah, they still have a siesta. There's something really beautiful about Sicily, that it's just in its own time in its world. And I think it's a stunning part of the world, Sicily.

Annoushka Ducas:
And would you ever want to buy a house there?

Angela Hartnett:
I would love to. I'd love to get to a stage where I could afford to buy a house there and not have to work. Yeah. That would be great.

Annoushka Ducas:
You say you don't want to work, but what you do.

Angela Hartnett:
I really don't want to work. Oh my God. I would retire tomorrow. I know everyone says that to me.

Annoushka Ducas:
Would you?

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah. I'd happily sit at home watching Netflix all day long. I love work.

Annoushka Ducas:
No, but hang on. You just said that. But actually, during COVID, you got up and you were bloody busy.

Angela Hartnett:
No, I know. But that was slightly different because you also, I was still running four businesses. So you felt you had to do stuff and continue. I think if you retire, and suddenly I'm not having to run anything, oh God, I'd retire.

Annoushka Ducas:
Would you?

Angela Hartnett:
Oh God, I'd have no problem.

Annoushka Ducas:
What about Neil? Would he retire?

Angela Hartnett:
He's a lot younger than me. He'd have to keep working. Even better. He'd be out to work and I can sit at home, puttering around.

Annoushka Ducas:
I can't imagine. I can't imagine that.

Angela Hartnett:
Oh my God. Yes.

Annoushka Ducas:
Anyway, so there's the plan. There's a kind of grand plan. Okay. So Angela, when somebody finds this, your life in seven charms, this bracelet that I've drawn, maybe a hundred years from now, 50 years from now, what would you like them to kind of remember you for? What would be your legacy? If somebody was explaining that this is for Angela?

Angela Hartnett:
Oh gosh. God, that's a very difficult question. I suppose I'd achieved what I wanted to in my career, done the right thing. I've done the right thing. I've been good with my family, treated them correctly. Not treated. You know, just being very family orientated, I suppose. And just true to myself, I think. I think that's probably the way to do it.

Annoushka Ducas:
I think that's so enough. Because jewelry-

Angela Hartnett:
She lived the life she wanted to live, maybe. Something like that. There you go.

Annoushka Ducas:
Perfect. But jewelry is so much about the narrative that goes with it. So it's really always really interesting to me to know what it says about the person. And then my final question is, as you know, as a thank you for coming to chat to me today, I'd like to make you one of these charms.

Angela Hartnett:
Wow. Thank you.

Annoushka Ducas:
So I'd like to know which charm you'd like me to make?

Angela Hartnett:
Oh crikey. I think I'd like my dad's hat, actually. I think that would be a great one to have.

Annoushka Ducas:
I will make you this rather lovely, blingy hat.

Angela Hartnett:
Yeah.

Annoushka Ducas:
Thank you so much.

Angela Hartnett:
Thank you.

Annoushka Ducas:
You've been an absolute pleasure. Really lovely to see you.

Angela Hartnett:
Brilliant. Thank you very much for having me.

Annoushka Ducas:
Thank you so much for listening to My Life in Seven Charms, with me, Annoushka Ducas. If you would like to see all of the charms and illustrations that I've made for my guests, please go to my website, annoushka.com. If you have enjoyed this podcast, I would be so grateful if you could rate and review and subscribe, and also share with your friends. It would be such a help. Thank you so much to my producer, Robin at Fairly Media. See you soon.

READ LESS